Right On The Right

...sad thing is, you are actually one of the smartest people who post on here. Take that back-handed and snotty compliment as you will.

"Back on topic here, I’m not saying we don’t have problems. There’s plenty wrong with this country, but I prefer to approach change from a posture of love and positivity instead of the glaring hatred. I feel a love for the work of my ancestors and the heritage I am blessed with."

You know, man, there's nothing wrong with that statement. I admire it, and in my own way, I agree with everything you said in this statement.

You should plug into your place with someone, a third to fourth generation immigrant to this country, who had a heritage of pro-labor or pro-unionism (things that once had their needs for and places in the past, but we may agree on lots of the views on unionism in the current age).

Or the heritage of some black guy who's grandfathers marched in the south and who's great-grandfather was a slave.

Or some indian on a reservation somewhere in the west. Or even out of one and 'properly assimilated' into the current dominant culture. The past remains the past.

Or women, who just until a few decades ago, had an almost agreed upon second place status in this country, in almost all fields and social strata.

Cuz' they all have heritages and cultures while living here. And they're all as valid and as real as yours.

(And yeah, I know I'm on shaky ground when I consider women as a culture of sorts. I figure since people talk of a 'white male culture', there has to be the female equivalent. )

I know you have issues with statements like that, based on what people have gone through, and not covered in footnotes and source notes. But truth is truth. Lame as it sounds. Not like I'm the only cat in here not backing up his shit with documents and links to STACLU or Malkin.

Yes, I damn the Magna Carta for those reasons. But nobody on this forum is parroting how great the Magna Carta is.

And if slavery was such a small, unimportant concern, why wasn't it done away with earlier? Slave holding ran the range of people who had a few slaves to families that held hundreds. And yes, the majority of people may not have held slaves, but that doesn't make them all abolitionists. Again, slave holding had to have some power and legitimacy, the institution was coddled, codified and made legal for a pretty long time by Presidents, congressmen and the Supreme Court.

You say people were excluded then, in this nation's founding. And lots of people were officially excluded up until just a few decades ago.

I think lots of people are still be excluded, in various ways, big and small. And I think that is at the root of 'the left's' 'hatred' 'contrary' 'wrong' views of this country.

You're right. I was being flip with my 'witches burning comment'. I have to dig around more into our shared history of pre-revolutionary era America. I think I'll find that those people were racist and genocidal though. Just as previous readings have shown. To me. Anyway...

Because, if they weren't those things, overall and at the root, history would have turned out very differently on this continent.

But, then again, I'll just read the sources that confirm that, just as most of us do with our political and historical readings.

And I think my stats about wages and slaves in the era came from a book called 'Rebels and Democrats'. Its been awhile though, but I'm sure that's the numbers and source. But then again, I'm not the only one on here not leaving footnotes and don't feel the need to be pushed into being the only one.

Oh, and 'hope of the free world'? haha. Jesus Christ. I remember reading stuff like that in elementary school. Its kind of a simple view of what is and as always been a very complex country in a very complicated world. Thinking that history is little more gray and complex than your simple good/evil, black/white stuff is just another difference between what you call 'the right' and 'the left'.

I’m tempted to agree with you (“Maybe I’m stupid”) but I needn’t stoop to name calling. No one does in this civil forum.

Where did you get those figures for slave prices and European wages? Were those constant dollars you quoted? People were making 70 cents a day in the 1920s and 30s, too, but you ignore the vast range of variation, all in an attempt to smear the hope of the free world. Your surmise about slavery and the agrarian “paradise” economy is pure conjecture; common folk were the majority and did not own slaves.

Witch-burnings were widespread in Europe before they happened here–sometimes destroying entire towns–and the Pilgrims didn’t emigrate just so they could engage in it; they emigrated to practice their religion unencumbered by government interference. I can’t accept the offering of an anecdote as disproof of a trend, especially in a subject divergent from the discussion. Your attempt to refute by reducing hundreds of years of history into one abstract sentence is sloppy and rather desperate. You need to revise widely accepted history to prove your points.

Back on topic here, I’m not saying we don’t have problems. There’s plenty wrong with this country, but I prefer to approach change from a posture of love and positivity instead of the glaring hatred. I feel a love for the work of my ancestors and the heritage I am blessed with. What are you so mad about? Maybe life truly sucks for you, in which case you have my sympathy. Loathing one’s forebears isn’t going to change much for you, though.

I’m glad my forefathers wrote and adopted a Constitution, flawed as it was, because it was the most promising document of its kind and there would have been no hope for progress without it. It is not a “living” document, but it has provisions to allow the people to change it as their attitudes and dispositions change. You would apparently damn the founders for leaving out slaves and women, and by extension, the idea of America. Should the “perfect” concept have been scrapped because its execution was not perfect? Do you hold the same sentiment toward the Magna Carta (which also omitted blacks and women), without which there would be no Constitution?

-on the government to keep markets open for them. To protect their intellectual property rights. To keep open channels of trade. To keep their products cheap on the world markets (subsidies). To keep labor cheap inside and outside of the US (keeping out those socialist governments---Cuba's only true crime is keeping their labor markets closed, China rectified this thirty years ago and got a seat at the world table).

And in return they get to move their manufacturing out of the US, cause a huge trade deficit with china and help put the final nails into the coffin of the dollar as world reserve currency.

And there's an open door for Big Business in terms of in the government. People fall out of public life and into the corporate sector soon as they loose an election or finish a term. Funny how many senators, presidents and congressmen end up on boards of corporations.

All of serves to illustrate that the US government and Corporations are two heads of the same snake. Or huge, towering bald eagle, if I were of your friendly disposition regarding unregulated corporate power.

Uncle G...

I’m addressing you because the replies aren't nested on this site like they used to be; too bad. Thanks for your stream-of-consciousness contribution to the thread, but you misread much of my post. I’ll be brief.

I disagree that most non-voters stay home because they don’t like either candidate. Polls indicate that most non-voters stay home because they aren’t paying attention, but I can live with that. I’d rather not have the ignorami of society influencing our elections any more than they already do.

“We have had plenty of viable alternative energy souces for decades that we choose not to use.” Viable? Please name one that comes close (in availability and price) to supplanting the petrol in our cars on a widespread basis, even today. Our efficiency standards have not dropped, they have increased–ever so slightly recently, but steadily. The result is more smaller, lighter, and less safe cars. That’s what you get when you let bureaucrats tell engineers how to build their product.

You apparently don’t understand the oil commodities market, so I won’t waste my time arguing its mechanics, which are functioning as designed and have kept our price of gasoline much lower than most of Europe’s for over 40 years.

Corporations are not formed for the “good of the people.” They are formed to provide a product that “the people” will buy and thus turn a profit, at which time customers and employees alike will benefit. The market will sort out the good from the bad if given the chance to work. I agree that corporate welfare is a problem, but to clarify your point please be more specific about which companies you mean, and contrast between “welfare” and “tax breaks.” If you think that corporations shouldn’t have any access to political power, then wouldn’t you agree they should not be taxed? Taxation without representation is a phrase I’m sure you remember from whatever education you’ve had.

Or maybe I'm stupid. Yah, I've been brainwashed by the big liberal media. Funny how you accuse Uncle G of the same shit you're guilty of. Being brainwashed. Or maybe we are. You're indoctrinated by one set of values and 'facts', and we're indoctrinated by another.

I for one, would be willing to admit that I could have some shit wrong with how I feel about this country and what I might or might not know about its past, but on this score I'm damned certain I have some facts.

Let me just hit a few of your points, Captain America:

"The majority of the population was neither rich nor slave, and it was an expensive proposition to own slaves, so your claim is preposterous."

In the mid-1600s, the price of an african slave was 27.00 dollars. To put that in perspective, the salary of a European laborer was .70 cents a day. True, one would have to feed and house the slaves, but in the agrarian paradise that was here, building a barn and feeding them corn wasn't too hard.

Don't forget, there weren't just black slaves here. Lots of white, indentured servants were dragged over here too. I believe at one point in Pennsylvania's history white servants outnumbered the amount of land-owning, property owning citizens.

"Americans did not invent slavery, they ended it in this hemisphere"

Golly, we sure weren't very helpful when Haiti threw off their imperial French owners. How is that twenty years after we tossed out the British, we weren't very helpful when the second rebellion happened right in our hemisphere?

And if slavery was such as a small institution, why did it take so long to get rid of it? It must have been large enough that the southern slave owners had to be coddled and catered to.

And at the time of the Constitution's writing, how many of the founding fathers were slave owners?

And you want to talk about learning history, do some research into Thomas Paine. You might learn about how he was an abolitionist while the rest of whom I assume are your heroes were worrying about preserving their power and land and riches. You might learn how 'Common Sense' was a document that had to be thrust upon them by the people, for Paine's 'leveling' thoughts were kind of dangerous to them. You might also want to look into the concept of the levelers and how they impacted with the other founding fathers and such.

And why did the federal government allow Jim Crow laws for the following 100 years?

Don't forget, the Constitution only applied to WHITE LAND OWNERS. Black slaves just weren't left behind, poor whites were. Women were. Some document, huh?

"The "zealots" you speak of merely sought religious freedom, not domination of others."

I know! At that time, in Europe, nobody would let them burn people at the stake for being witches!

Keep it up with the rose-tinted look at this country's past. It amuses me.

Lesthanzero,

Heh.

No, man, I can think for myself without resorting to the go-to sound bites that "conservatives" use to justify foolish policies.

By "conservative", I mean those folks who say their conservative and then vote for canidates who give huge welfare checks to profitable corporations. I'm not sure how they coopted that term for themselves. Hmm, I wonder what people who actually are for small government and wise spending call themselves now?

But I digress...

I'm not a Democrat, hoss. They're just as corrupt as the GOP.

Most people dont vote because they don't like either of the canidates. They're both bought and sold to do the special interest bidding of the elite few.

Congress isn't acting according to the will of the American people. Just look at all of the amnesty bills they keep trying to sneak into law despite an overwhelming number of Americans opposing them.

The economy grew during Bush's term but the average American seen their wages decrease during this time.

The home lenders should bite the bullet for this mess but once again our corporate controlled government is spending OUR tax money to bail out big buisnesses and say it's for our benfit!

We have had plenty of viable alternative energy souces for decades that we choose not to use. Our fuel efficiency standards were dropped and now we use way more oil because of it.

Oil helps to fund terrorism all over the world.

Oil is the lube of terrorism. Ooh, that'd make a great bumper sticker!

Sure we could destroy every inch of undeveloped land we have left in this country to feed our addiction, but the oil companies would just make up a reason why the prices haven't gone down. Y'know, like they always do.

BOTH of our political parties are corrupt beyond repair and we need a viable third party.

Big corpoartions get hundreds of millions of our money to give out to their overpaid CEO's who then desert the emplyees that were the backbone of their company for slave labor in communist countries.

But I guess trade policies that empower brutal dictatorships is a good thing, huh?

No, corporations should not have any political power. None. We don't elect corporations to serve the good of the people. We, the people, should have the political power.

And considering all of the government bailouts we keep giving to these companies, I would argue that they aren't being run too efficiently themselves.

This country lived up to the talk with the Emancipation Proclamation, FYI. At the time of ratification, the US Constitution was the only document of its kind in the world, and flawed as its execution was re slavery, it was a milestone of human rights. Are you faulting your ancestors for trying but not being perfect?

The "zealots" you speak of merely sought religious freedom, not domination of others.

Economies based on free and cheap labor? Nonsense; prosperity was based on abundant resources and a willingness to work hard and sacrifice. Americans did not invent slavery, they ended it in this hemisphere. Review your history; the economy of the colonies and early republic relied on slavery in a small percentage. The majority of the population was neither rich nor slave, and it was an expensive proposition to own slaves, so your claim is preposterous.

Your hatred of America is utterly transparent. Thanks for being honest about it.

Uncle, your delusions are entertaining; most likely they are a product of mass media brainwashing or Democrat talking points (quite often the same thing). You make it sound as if untold masses of dying and sickly are queing up in soup lines everywhere, the Congress expressly disregards the public will (even though barely half of them vote), all while we are plundering the world worse than the Soviets did. I remember taking drugs in the 70s that distorted my view of reality nearly that much.

The truth is that the economy is still growing, though the rate of growth has slowed dramatically. This is a natural and cyclical occurance. It is not government's job to ensure that everyone wins all the time. The chickens that have come home to roost are lax lending practices, risky home loans mandated by Congress in the name of ending "discrimination," and a prosperous population who would rather spend than save--but then, they are only following the example of their elected officials.

Oil is the engine of economic freedom, and though we have plenty of it here, one party has made it impossible for Americans to extract petroleum from our hemisphere while the Cubans and Chinese pump oil from wells 50 miles off our shores, all because of an unproven mythical belief that, unlike previous millenia, humans are causing global warming this time around.

To be fair, you mentioned a few facts: the dollar is falling and our education system is failing. Neither of these conditions are a result of the "idea" of America, but the corruption of it by one political party who thrives on making as many citizens as possible helpless and dependent on those in power rather than instilling self-reliance. You know who I'm talking about.

If big corporations provide mass employment and tax revenue, why should they not have equal or proportional access to political power? They are much better at running a business than government is, and it is none of government's business what their executives are paid.

-I only hit 'post comment' once.

founded by religious zealots and corporations (land companies were big bizness!), with a constitution that immediately discounted more than half the population! Then it moved ahead with economies based on free and cheap labor!

But hey, at least the US talks a good game. Imagine if this country actually lived up to the talk....World could be a great place.

We rule!

And why aren't you crowing over the fall of Marc Dann, Justin? Good lord if he thought it was Good Friday for him when the Vindy went after him last year the past few days were just the nails S-L-O-W-L-Y being driven in!

founded by religious zealots and corporations (land companies were big bizness!), with a constitution that immediately discounted more than half the population! Then it moved ahead with economies based on free and cheap labor!

But hey, at least the US talks a good game. Imagine if this country actually lived up to the talk....World could be a great place.

We rule!

And why aren't you crowing over the fall of Marc Dann, Justin? Good lord if he thought it was Good Friday for him when the Vindy went after him last year the past few days were just the nails S-L-O-W-L-Y being driven in!

A corporate controlled government?
Failing education system?
Skyrocketing poverty?
Broken health care system?
Hypocritical foreign policy?
Corporate welfare?
The falling dollar?

This is what makes America great!

I love people that aasume we're the best country in the world yet have never been to another country.

If your brother becomes addicted to drugs and you love him, do you let him keep doing what he's doing or hold an intervention? Our country needs an intervention right now, not mindless cheerleading of it's glory years which have long since passed us by.

Newsflash: the world has caught up with us and the corrupt elite in our government from both parties let it happen.

And, no, pointing out my country's problems doesn't mean I hate it. Quite the opposite, in fact. If I hated America, I would sit back and let our country "stay the course."

Am I the only one to comment on this?

Come on my favorite Neo-Cons, I wanna hear what you think. Geesh. Sorry Justin, just thought this post would be hoppin.

What makes this country great? Well for starters it's the "idea" of America. It's not like other countries have the "idea". Take Italy for instance, I've been there a number of times to see family, and as much pride they have for Italy, there isn't the "idea" of Italy.

It's the "idea" that we have a Constitution that has lasted for so long. Granted it's been torn to shreds over the past 180 years, but it's the "idea" we have Constitutional rights. It's the "idea" we have a "free market" (it really isn't), it's the "idea" that I can walk down the street without being harassed by a Government Thug.(ala Communist Russia).

It's all about the "idea".Not the Government, not the Borders, not this "National Greatness" stuff, but the Idea of America.